Mike Pence emerges as one of the few Republicans willing to challenge Trump 2.0

Donald Trump, right, shakes hands with former vice-president Mike Pence before the state funeral for former president Jimmy Carter at Washington National Cathedral in Washington, Jan. 9, 2025. (AP Photo/Jacquelyn Martin, File)

WASHINGTON — His group spent nearly $1 million on ads opposing Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Donald Trump’s pick to lead the nation’s health agencies. He’s delivering speeches urging the president to stand with longstanding foreign allies and lobbying members of Congress while aides write letters and opinion columns.

This weekend, he posted an article he penned more than a decade ago on the limits of presidential power after Trump claimed that, “He who saves his Country does not violate any Law.”

Mike Pence is emerging as one of the last Republicans in Washington willing to publicly criticize the new administration.

It’s an especially jarring role for the former vice president, whose refusal to break with Trump defined their time together in office until the two had a falling out over Trump’s refusal to accept the results of the 2020 election and his efforts to remain in power.

Pence and those who work with him at Advancing American Freedom, his political advocacy group, stress they are not looking to take on the “Never Trump” mantle. They intend to praise the administration when they agree with it, while raising concerns when they don’t, advocating for longtime conservative principles that have fallen out of favor as Trump’s “Make America Great Again” brand of populism has taken hold.

“We’re calling balls and strikes here,” Pence told The Associated Press.

Pence opposed Kennedy — who has since been confirmed as secretary of health and human services — due to Kennedy’s past comments voicing support for abortion rights. His group is now lobbying against Lori Chavez-DeRemer, Trump’s pick for labor secretary, accusing her of being pro-union, and plans to spend the coming months pushing to increase military spending, shrink the deficit, and make permanent 2017 tax cuts, as well as trying to convince Trump to stop slapping tariffs on allies.

The AP recently sat down with Pence to discuss his efforts and his relationship with Trump — including a closely watched handshake at the funeral of President Jimmy Carter and his wife’s lack of reaction as the 45th and 47th president took his seat.

Here is a transcript of that conversation, which has been lightly edited for space and clarity:

Q: What do you see as your role and the role of AAF over the next four years?

Pence: “To be an anchor to windward ... I came across that line I think in a Herman Melville book a long time ago.”

“The wind blows in the direction of more government. And I think it’s a role of conservatives to anchor the party so that when the wind blows, you put the anchor to windward so you stay grounded and hopefully do some small part to hold, you know, hold the ship of state on the principles that really minted my career in this movement.”

“A strong defense, to American leadership of the free world, limited government, fiscal responsibility, growth, the right to life, traditional values — those were the values that drew me to the Republican Party. And I still think that they are the timeless ideals of the party of Lincoln. And so I want to do my part, even as a former elected official, to use whatever remains of my bully pulpit to be a champion for those principles.”

Q: How are you picking your battles?

Pence: “Well, for me, it’s always principles first. It’s not personal. I went to the inauguration last month and I was very moved in the outpouring of kind words and expressions of appreciation from former colleagues, including many members of the new administration who I encountered in hallways. And I saw Secretary of State (Marco) Rubio. I gave him a hug, told him how proud I was of him. We had praised him from here when he was selected. I must have seen about or interacted with about half the incoming Cabinet.”

“We went to the Carter funeral. And the president and I had a very cordial exchange. You know, he was coming down the row in front of us at the National Cathedral and he said, ‘Hi, Mike.’ And I was standing up, extended my hand, and I said, ‘Congratulations, Mr. President.’ And I could see his countenance softened. And he said, ‘Thanks.’ And Melania reached out and I said, ‘Congratulations, Melania.’ And it was, you know, the people that know me know it’s not personal. I’ve long since forgiven the president for any differences that we had at the end of our administration. We still have those differences as the president still holds the view that, to my knowledge, that I had some authority that I did not have under the Constitution or laws of the country. But from my heart, I’ve prayed often for the president.”

“And so, to answer your question, I think that the way we want to approach this is with integrity to principle. And I’m very encouraged. I think the Trump administration is off to a great start ... I’m very pleased about the president undoing Biden’s border policies and putting back into place the policies that we had negotiated and established that secured the border. But you know, with regard to the nomination of RFK ... for me, it would begin and end with the right to life ... I saw the nomination of an abortion rights supporter to be secretary of HHS to be a dramatic departure from 50 years of strong pro-life leadership at HHS under Republican administrations. So we thought it was important to speak out. And we got a lot of quiet encouragement about that.”

Q: Quiet encouragement?

“Well, we got a lot of quiet encouragement from people that, for whatever reason, didn’t feel compelled to join us in that chorus. But I thought it was an important point for us to make. And, you know, we’ll continue to be a champion.”

Q: Why are Republicans so reluctant to speak out publicly?

Pence: “I never speculate on motives. You know, I’m not new to town. I’ve waged lonely battles before.”

“But you know, you have to be willing to step out and lead. And my hope is that even in the wake of this fight that, you know, the Senate has worked its will, the president will get his choice at HHS. My hope is that when the next issue of life comes up, that people will have been encouraged, emboldened to know that they’re not alone.”

Q: Is there support in the party for moving back in the direction that you’d like to see versus the populist, MAGA wing of the party that’s ascendant?

Pence: “Well now you hit it. Now you’re on it. I don’t think — look, I think some of the prominent voices in the party have embraced a more populist thinking. I don’t believe the overwhelming majority of people that ever vote Republican think any differently than they thought during our administration when we hewed to a conservative agenda or the years before or since."

“Let me give you one anecdote. So I’m at a town hall meeting when I’m running for president. And at the end of the town hall meeting — it was well-attended, it was in Iowa — a farmer walked up to me and he said, ‘It was a great town hall meeting. I agree with everything you say.’ You know, and I argued for — this was literally in the wake of the Oct. 7 attack. And I argued for strong American support for Israel, strong American leadership in the world, continued support for Ukraine in their fight and limited government and bringing about reforms to put our fiscal house in order and right to life.

And this farmer says to me, he said, ‘I agree with absolutely everything you said.’ So I said, ‘Well, can I count on your vote?’ And he said, ‘No, I got to be for Trump this time.’ And he goes, ‘But I’ll see you in four years. You’re going to be a great president someday.’ I said, ‘Would you mind telling me, you know, why?’ And he said words I never forgot, which was in effect: He lamented Biden’s failed record. And I saw that he was drawn to the need for a rematch. And then he said, ‘Plus, if they can do that to a former president, they can do that to me.’ And the ‘lawfare’ stuff went into higher relief.

“So I didn’t see in this last election a Republican Party that was embracing big government or a vision to pull back from America’s commitments on the world stage or marginalizing the right to life. I didn’t see that traveling all over the country and I still don’t see it. I think there were other factors that gave the former president a decided advantage in the election. He’d earned it. He’d won it. And then he won it in the fall. But I don’t think the party’s changed.”

Q: You mentioned the Carter funeral earlier. Tell me about your wife’s reaction to the Trumps that day.

(At the funeral, former second lady Karen Pence refused to acknowledge the then-president elect or shake Melania Trump’s hands — footage that ended up going viral online.)

Pence: “My wife loves her husband. And I love my wife and I have great respect for her. And so — but I’ve been really moved at how many people around the country have thanked us both for that day.

“But again, you know, I want to emphasize, we’re eyes forward here. You know, I’d always thought the president was going to come around on the position he took on Jan. 6. If you read the end of my book, which I’d be flattered if you did, you’ll read we actually parted on very amicable terms, very good terms. But in the spring, when he returned to the rhetoric about how I could have done something that neither the Constitution nor the law would ever permit any vice president to do, then I just decided it was important to go our separate ways. But hope springs eternal. And we want to be a constructive force for the conservative agenda. I think that’s good for the administration. It’s good for the Congress. More importantly, it’s good for America.”

Jill Colvin, The Associated Press